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Post by Justin Goh on Aug 13, 2004 10:47:36 GMT
A friend of mine recently told me they wanted to do a martial art. sO I SAID GOOD LET ME TAKE YOU WHERE I GO!
Then they said they were going to do a brazilian martial art, oh BJJ i thought.
Well, no Capoeira?
In 'Opinion' is this a martial art or just whatever else?
jk
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Post by Marc Jung Shin (Marc Jones) on Aug 13, 2004 11:09:39 GMT
Justin... In your picture, you actually look like you are doing Capoeira yourself... ;D
The "dancing around a drum" bit to me personally does not constitute a martial art by itself, but from what little I know of the history of Capoeira, this was simply the way to disguise what they were doing as martial art was outlawed at some point in Brazillian history.
However I have seen other training on Capoeira which seems as if there is more to it than first meets the eye.... (when it comes to actual application)
I see the "dancing" bit as either their forms, or sparring, I am led to believe that there is more to it than that, even though this is what most people see..
It may look very different, as does monkey Kung Fu, but I do not think this makes it any less a martial art than others...
Each to their own...
Except: Tae-box-kick-bo-exer-body-combat-step-aero-kick stuff... I totally disagree with ANY claim by these people, that the participants are learning a martial art... It is an exercise class and nothing more, so to award black belts in these classes is not only laughable but deeply wrong..!! the original founders may have known a martial art, but the students are not being taught one..! and i think it is criminally wrong to give people false confidence or false belief.
Sorry for the rant, he he he ;D
Marc
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Post by Alex Catterall on Aug 13, 2004 11:54:25 GMT
...that is the question.
Hmm, I don't think it's the martial art that matters to be honest Justin. I strongly believe it's the practicioner. You can learn stuff for martial arts from the weirdest non-MA related stuff.
If I learnt Tai-Chi and entered competitions claiming to be a Tai-Chi master I'd still fight in my usual kick-box-grapple self but with added Tai-Chi experience.
All experience is good. All.
Plus the instructor is critical too. The way they train n' that.
Just my two pence.
Marcus... (here we go) I instinctivly have to disagree with absolutly everything. Litterally. Here goes.
I think the most important thing in MA is that it instills confidence. When crooks are looking for someone to ply their trade on (i.e. Rob/steal) they look for people who i) arn't aware and look ii)undefenceable. By undefencable I mean negative, non-confident body language. People who 'believe' they can defend themselves from an attacker are less likley to freeze and in fact are going to feel more confident about themselves simply because of this belif thusly stopping the attacker before the attack occurs.
Many MA's for years has proven to be ineffective against a real attack so why make it different for Tai-Bo or whatever.
The BB is just an awknolagment of mastery no? BB in mathematics? BB is perhaps just another word for A+ grade?
And when Tai-Bo is all about lashing out and using all of your aggression and to 'keep going' it seems that is all that is required in a confrontation.
To keep going and exactly the opposite of what they want you to do. To never give in. To push on even when it hurts.
My (controversial) twenty pence yet again.
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Post by Dave Melton on Aug 13, 2004 16:31:48 GMT
I think the most important thing in MA is that it instills confidence. When crooks are looking for someone to ply their trade on (i.e. Rob/steal) they look for people who i) arn't aware and look ii)undefenceable. By undefencable I mean negative, non-confident body language. People who 'believe' they can defend themselves from an attacker are less likley to freeze and in fact are going to feel more confident about themselves simply because of this belif thusly stopping the attacker before the attack occurs. Very true, and eventhough you and I agree that martial arts instills confidence, I do not believe it is not necessarily the most important thing. Every person is different. I have always been confident, so martial arts did not instill it in me. So, it was the next thing that was best for me - self control rather than confidence. WHOA! Are you saying Tae-Bo is the same as any other art?? Sorry - gotta completely disagree there. Furthermore, I have never read anywhere (except someone's opinion) that MA has proven to be ineffective. How would you go about proving that anyway. You are contradicting your own belief that if martial arts instills confidence, and confidence deters an attacker, then martial arts deters attackers. Absolutely not! I have a 4th dan and eventhough my title is Master Instructor, I hardly believe I have mastered any art! Is that really what Tae-Bo is all about? ....REALLY? I used to teach it for 1.5 years and believe me the "students" don't learn a d**n thing about martial arts. While they are practicing martial arts techniques, they do not learn how to apply it in any way shape or form. If that is the case, then ANY aerobics class could be considered good "self defense". Sorry Alex gotta disagree with you there my friend! |
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Post by Marc Jung Shin (Marc Jones) on Aug 13, 2004 21:37:45 GMT
Alex
I am open enough to see some merit in you point about the confidence... But there are many things which can make you walk with an air of confidence, but they wont arm you for self defence either...
True, not every instructor or student will teach / learn self defence any better than a Tae-kick-bo-exer-thingy class, or it could just be these people shat themselves the second something happened.. I totally Get that, I can't say I agree with it all still...
I know of just as many incidents where martial arts HAS worked as ones where it has not... I dont think you can make a blanket rule... I feel I teach good self defence, but I always make a point of telling my students that "the street" is very different from the Dojang.. what we teach can certainly help them, but will not make them invincible to any attacker..
I dont know of any educational establishment which issues black belts for passing a maths test, nor should martial arts hand out GCSE's or A levels...
I do not hate these classes, I just don't like it when they try to persuade people they are more than they are..... Because they are an exercise class..
Anyway, I don't want to steal this thread with my feeling on this, Alex.. what u think of Capoeira..?
Marc ;D
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Post by Stuart Anslow on Aug 13, 2004 23:16:11 GMT
Gotta agree with Marc, I dont Tae Bo etc offer much more than fitness & toning. If you`ve ever seen the Tae bo videos, you see people kicking & punching incorrectly (and its never corrected), they never throw them out with power (as its in the air & bad for the joints anyway) & they never hit pads. If it instils confidence (in defence), then for 99% of them it will be false. One of the biggest & most important lessons martial arts teach in relation to defence is how to take & hit & keep on going! The first hit can be a fit stopper, especially if you`ve never been hit before. Some martial arts also enforce teaching how to fight with blod & snot in ya face!, not to mention targetting etc. Tae-bo teaches non of that. Tae bo is fitness that looks interesting, However, the fitness classes Im about to start teaching are practical, as they are really based on martial arts, students will develop impact power, pad work is used etc. Have a look at www.harrowmartialarts.com under fitness Stuart (copyright 2004  ) |
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Post by Stuart Anslow on Aug 13, 2004 23:20:10 GMT
A friend of mine recently told me they wanted to do a martial art. sO I SAID GOOD LET ME TAKE YOU WHERE I GO! Then they said they were going to do a brazilian martial art, oh BJJ i thought. Well, no Capoeira? In 'Opinion' is this a martial art or just whatever else? jk Actually, according to Don Dredger (a noted martial arts historian), nothing is a martial art unless its been used by an army in battle! hence the term martial! (Mars - God of War etc). As to weather it is or isnt, is a judgement made by you, it has similarities to many other martial arts, plus impractical moves (like many martial arts) - but its not just all about the Martial, but the art as well! It also has a long & interesting history. Stuart Ps. Marcs right as well, thats a Capoeria kick you traitor  |
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Post by Alex Catterall on Aug 14, 2004 15:07:17 GMT
Capoeira - each unto his own. (Just to keep it on thread). I'm not convinced it's the thread relevance that's the issue more the whether it's sensible or inane crud.
Now, to continue with the controversy.
Crooks look for easy targets yeah?
An easy target is best defined as someone with:
a) lack of awareness
b) an insecure manner
Tae-Bo certainly won't help with awareness but it solves half of the equation. Even if it's false confidence a crook, even a good crook would be hard pressed to tell the difference. The confident person walks with 'the champions walk' which deters those sorts. It simply decreases the likley hood of that person being targeted.
Should they be confronted then the effectivness of Tae-Bo, in my experience is similar to that of many folk utilising a martial art. I have changed my stance from all to many.
We are all aware that it's not the style but the person using it yeah? I suppose a good instructor can use a base system that works for everyone and I wouldn't be suprised if you guys have found it from the sounds of it but I think most instructors arn't capable of that.
I could be talking out of my hat but I've been to train with many instructors and there's only been about 2 who I'd be confident to fight along side with.
I don't think it's wrong to put claim to BB in Tae-Bo because who's to say who can and can't claim it. It doesn't 'belong' to anyone. It's just a belt. Keeps yer pants up. Something for the Tae-Bo's to strive for much the same in MA in many cases I think.
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Post by Travis Bowler on Aug 15, 2004 1:38:30 GMT
Tae-Bo certainly won't help with awareness but it solves half of the equation. Even if it's false confidence a crook, even a good crook would be hard pressed to tell the difference. The confident person walks with 'the champions walk' which deters those sorts. It simply decreases the likley hood of that person being targeted. Should they be confronted then the effectivness of Tae-Bo, in my experience is similar to that of many folk utilising a martial art. I have changed my stance from all to many. Well put Alex. I was thinking of how to sum up the same thing but you've done it for me (and probably worded it better  ). Attitude means so much, that regardless of where a confident attitude comes from it only matters whether you have it or not. This is not only the case for attack/assualt avoidance, but also applies to heated situations as well - most of it is only posturing, and if you remain cool and confident (whether false confidence or not) then a lot of the time the bloke who is trying to get a rise outta you is gonna just shake his head and go for an easier target to 'bully'. I know thats a big generalisation, but as a rule of thumb I've seen it to be true. |
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Post by Alex Catterall on Aug 15, 2004 12:17:43 GMT
Hoorah! ;D ;D
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Post by Marc Jung Shin (Marc Jones) on Aug 16, 2004 6:47:37 GMT
Alex, Trav,
Like I said, the "confidence being a deterrant" aspect.. Great.. I agree, but that confidence can be obtained from anywhere doing any activity, should we just give black belts to any confident person..? And still does not make Tae-Kick-Exer-combat stuff a "Martial Art" as people know it...
Again you are right, nobody owns the rights to say who can award black belts and who cannot, so the local knitting circle can award black belts if they want...
But the public who come to these exercise classes (because, and I say again.. they ARE JUST exercise classes) are being misled in my opinion by being awarded a belt which the general public percieve and associate with martial arts and a certian level of ability within a martial art... and they are NOT (IMO) martial arts..
And what happens when that confidence becomes over-confidence, and the exercise-class-student decides they can handle a situation that they might have otherwise walked or run away from...?
That has happened with Martial Artists, so I am quite sure it would happen with them too...
Marc
;D
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Post by Alex Catterall on Aug 16, 2004 20:07:23 GMT
You're a d@mn good opponent Marc! Keep it up.
Yeah, I agree with you now. With regards Tae-Bo is nothing more then a fitness class. But your last statment you said yourself that you know people who've gotten over confident through martial arts and how it can happen with both? I agree.
That's why I think stuff like all this Boxercise lark is just as good even though it doesn't go under the martial art banner.
I know a quite few black belts who I think would possibly struggle against the usual street encounter becase 'most' martial art/fitness training doesn't cater for that sort of environment where a 'live' opponent is screaming in a vulgar manner to hand over your cash followed by some nasty threats of what their going to do if you don't and some intimidating body language. Maybe a few stricks just to scare em' as well.
So in that respect I'd say it's on a par with most martial art schools. (not all).
I've trained in a variety of places and this is where my experience on this is based. Doesn't mean it's the be-all and end all, you might know more about it then I and if so I hope you will disuade me from my currant course.
Battle on fair Marc, battle on! ;D
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Post by Travis Bowler on Aug 17, 2004 1:38:42 GMT
But the public who come to these exercise classes (because, and I say again.. they ARE JUST exercise classes) are being misled in my opinion by being awarded a belt which the general public percieve and associate with martial arts and a certian level of ability within a martial art... and they are NOT (IMO) martial arts.. True, but couldn't the same also be said of no contact Mcdojo's, or the so called "Xtreme martial arts". They all have belt levels, and by the time they are black they can do all sorts of fancy moves and flips and Katas, but does this mean they are able to defend themselves when the sh*t hits the fan? I honestly don't think they could. I agree with you that it shouldn't be "the done thing", but I think that it already is. Check this link out, I couldn't believe it when I saw it: http://www.adrianroman.com./Distant_learning.htm some quotes from that site: "What In the Program? I will send you video tapes of Yellow Belt thru 1st Degree Black Belt, and written manuals for each belt level. You will receive a complementary workout t-shirt, your Black Belt and of course your 1st degree Black Belt diploma. I do this for three reason. (1) I'm a full blood Choctaw Indian and I use my Native honor system that you will complete the distance learning program and become the best possible Black Belt you can be. (2) God forbid something happen to me, I would not have wanted you to spend this kind of money and not receive your certification." Ok - so you get your 'Black belt" before you've even wacked a video into the VCR.. hmmm and a diploma no less. "By purchasing and following Grandmaster Roman’s American Kenpo system, you will receive your Black Belt certification, you will learn one of the best self defense systems in the world, and you will gain confidence, self esteem, and become more physically fit, all in the privacy of your home or office. " Interesting. Another grandmaster and one who will teach my 'one of the best self defence systems in the world' via a few video tapes. It sucks that this goes on, but I dont think taebo should be singled out, because many martial arts schools themselves are already doing the same thing  |
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Post by Andy "Mr Miyagi" Wright on Aug 17, 2004 17:06:18 GMT
If you`ve ever seen the Tae bo videos, you see people kicking & punching incorrectly (and its never corrected), they never throw them out with power (as its in the air & bad for the joints anyway) & they never hit pads. billy blanks does mention NOT to lock arms and legs when doing the moves;) |
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